A White Christmas for Many, but a Price to Pay
The Sunday-Sunday Night storm is shaping up to be a more dramatic system. Saturday night, winds will strengthen out of the SSE to 25-35, but with gusts to 45+ on the hilltops and along the L Erie shoreline. These winds will push temps up into the low/mid 50s by Sunday morning. Showers will increase later Sunday morning, and there may be a gusty tstorm as a sharp cold front crosses the region during early afternoon. SW winds will strengthen behind the front to at least 25-40 during the course of the Bills game, with gusts to over 45 by late afternoon. Precipitation will temporarily taper off as a "dry slot" behind the front takes over. Lake effect snow will gradually develop during the evening (if not very late afternoon) and pick up as some moisture gets back into the flow. The newest NAM model run suggests winds from 240 degrees much of the overnight, which would deliver much of the snow into the Northtowns (Amherst, Clarence), nrn Genesee, srn Orleans & southernmost Niagara Cos. The GFS seems to run more along a 250 vector, with a more rapid veering to 260 by and during the morning. 250 favors Buffalo.
Limiting factors: Wind shear at the outset, and dry air into early evening, before some more humidity returns later in the evening.
There is also some potential for Sunday afternoon & evening winds to go from being merely strong to High Winds (a severe weather term) which would pose the threat of localized property damage and increase shear. At this midday point, the High Wind looks like a 40 yes/60 no probability. The late night NAM will help with this factor.
Limiting factors: Wind shear at the outset, and dry air into early evening, before some more humidity returns later in the evening.
There is also some potential for Sunday afternoon & evening winds to go from being merely strong to High Winds (a severe weather term) which would pose the threat of localized property damage and increase shear. At this midday point, the High Wind looks like a 40 yes/60 no probability. The late night NAM will help with this factor.


341 Comments:
hey don ive seen the 12z gfs and it is bringing another moistuire behind this storm at 00 utc monday what is that is that the lake effect or it is the storm wrap around?
it looks like mainly snow if that happens
Thanks again, Don. Hope you and all the mets and staff at channel 4have a happy and safe holiday.
Ummm....how will the rink freeze with LAKE EFFECT SNOW all over it now!!!!
By the way, there was a very nice blogger from Barrie last weekend who asked if we "minded" posts from Canada.
Of course not! Please join in as you wish.
lg...
I've worked with ice rinks before...its never easy, I know. I dont think there will be much accumulation of LES so it may not cause so much problems but the snows may be torn apart by wind shear or they may be light or not last too long. If anything the snow will help to re-cool the standing water enough to condition it for freezing overnight Sunday to Monday.
It all depends if you've gotten it deep enough and a large enough area for the ice to withstand the rising temps, or if you have a small, shallow rink, everything may melt by tomorrow night. It will be too warm for freezing until Sunday eve. But once the snows end on Monday, you will have better conditions for your ice to freeze, I would imagine.
Yay for a white Christmas!!! How much snow do you think could fall in the Ntowns from LES?! Merry Christmas to everyone at WIVB!
Jim
Breaking News!!!!!!!!: A high Wind Watch is in effect for Niagra-Orleans-Monroe-Wayne-Northern Cayuga-Oswego-Norhern Erie-Gennese
Sustain winds of 25-35 mph with gust up to 60 mph
Plus A lake effect snow watch is in effect for Northern Erie Including The Metro area and the buffalo south towns
travel will become dangerous on sunday to sunday night due to the high winds and combined with the lake effect during sunday night. blizzard conditions will become likely during sunday night!!!!!!
Just so evry i knows the nws issued a WIND WHACH for all of wny starting 1 pm sunday untill 4am monday with winds 20-35 miles per hour and gust potencilly 60+ miles per hour especilly in the hills and along the like erie shore line -adam from hamburg
Umm , are you sure we are in the right season , 45+ degrees , High winds , T storms ( possibly)...
Sounds like its going to be a rough weekend , guess we should be happy it isnt going to be cold enough for all snow , then we could use that blizzard word..=]
So far though havent heard Don's key word...Whopper..
hett ayuud is there relly a lake snow whach???
yea but for some reason the NWS still didnt issue it at this time but they said in their forecast discussion
"A
LAKE EFFECT SNOW WATCH HAS BEEN ISSUED FOR PARTS OF THE IAG FRONT
FOR SUNDAY NIGHT...ALTHOUGH AS ELUDED TO...ADVISORY CRITERIA LAKE
SNOWS COULD AFFECT PARTS OF THE GENESEE VALLEY AS WELL."
Thanks for the comment Don. Great blog to read and to be edcuated about weather. Never too old to learn.
Just curious...is there a timeline for the sharp cold front to blow through the Buffalo area on Sunday.
Might then be able to gauge a timeline for my area.
What a difference a week makes in the wonderul world of weather.
Thanks.
COME ON DON GIVE US THE EXCITING UPDATE:::)))))))))))))))))))
ayuud were did you fine this???
the nws has just issude a lake snow whach for erie and niagra counties yyyyyyyyyyyayyyyyyyyyyyyyy
Mr. Don,
It seems as if my hopes of a white christmas could be fulfilled. according to the NWS discussion it appears L.E.S. will start in the northtowns, then into the city for several hours, then the southtowns, then finaaly ski country and snow belt. seems like lots of WNY except for No. Nigara/Orleans and Southern Chataqua/ Cattargus should have atlest some snow. This shows me how difficult predicting weather is.
did u see adam they issued the lake effect snow watch but depending on the wind if singnificant lake effect snow band develops believe me whiteout conditions are not out of question but the main question right now is
will the strong winds push the lake effect well inland to rochester?
i guess will have to see
Dagnabbit, there's that B-word again. If you look back over the past 30 years, there appear to be very few events in this area which qualify as a blizzard. They're not fun for a lot of us, and can cause serious problems for all of us. I like this blog a lot, but it's like fingernails on a blackboard to hear the b-word every time they call for snow.
ayuud-i live along the lake erie shore line in hamburg but what i think is that even if it reches rochester the winds will die down before the lake snow reaches th southtowns . well i gess well know monday morning thanks im relley learning a lot from you guys
Adam i think the winds along the erie shoreline in hamburg are very strong everytime when it is windy and btw adam what grade are u in?
im a 10th grader
ohhh Don Vs ayudd...j/k.. Seem like a prety smart kid , could we be seeing the next Don Paul , MB , MC ,ect... =]
hold on there folks! Theres a good chance the LES will be torn apart by wind sheer.
Sunday night the rain shouldnt change over until 1AM Monday morning. All that wind will be with the rain, and the dry patch before the snows set up.
I dont expect to see much snow, just enough for a fresh coating. And if theres still enough warm advection in the boundary layer we may see a sleet, freezing rain mix with that snow. No blizzards, though, sorry!
looking at the NAM and GFS runs, I'm putting my money on a decent LES even for Monday. Based on the Laws of Murphy, Its not gonna be pretty....
stay safe WNY!
Don,
On your 5 PM newscast you stated the high winds may tear apart the bands, preventing heavy lake effect snow.
If that's the case, will there still be *some* accumulating snow from whatever bands do get organized (maybe an inch or two), or will that mean there'll be no accumulations at all?
Can't answer when I'm preparing my wxcasts--you might try watching (just grit your teeth)!
Can't answer when I'm preparing my wxcasts--you might try watching (just grit your teeth)!
Here we go again!!
Rain/Thunderstorms... Winds... Minor flooding... LE SNOW FOR THE NORTH TOWNS!! -Did i miss anything?
Is it Christmas time, or spring time??! Wow! Looks like were in for another!
Question about NWS site: if you look at this link , and see the current warnings / watches , does it display as the most severe or no certain order if multiple watches are up?
http://www.erh.noaa.gov/buf/
Sounds like Team WIVB has a busy weekend...
No certain order.
Dear Mr. Don
I saw lake erie. theres a whopping 100-120 ft of ice of Athol springs. However if the wind were to push lake erie up, wouldn't that ice go onto route 5? if that were to happen, i could imagine things could get ugly. Unless the 50 degree temps melt it.
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There's a decent chance some of that ice and plenty of water will come up on Rt 5.
Our Super Microcast makes this a long duration lake effect event from around 9pm Sunday evening at least thru 7am, with a focus on the northtowns, srn Niagara, Orleans & Gen Cos with a subtle shift directly into Buffalo as well in that time frame. Again, one of the primary questions will be the amount of wind shear disrupting the bands. My own thoughts are that there may disruption in the evening hours, but windspeeds should subside just enough after midnight to allow a band to organize. The 5000'/850mb temperature will be sufficiently cold, if we ditch excessive shear, enough humidity returns to allow for a significant accumulation. Don't bother asking how much at this point--it's way too much of a crapshoot with the uncertainty over shear.
speaking of accumalation Accuweather is forecasting 6-10 inches for buffalo and 3-6 for south towns and 1-3 for the southern tier
I think the band will set up by the metro area and glaz the southtowns i hpe it dose. the southtowns havent seen a lot of snow so far weve seen less then buffalo. well i gess as the year gose on well begin to see more snow
Hey folks...lots going on here! What a crapshoot, indeed, Don! Just wanted to let you know that I would never want to have the responibilities that you have, trying to predict an unpredictable storm on Christmas...Good luck! Its much more fun to speculate without consequence...
Don,
this torm that is supposed to be coming... how much of the snow do you think will melt during the day on Sunday?!?
Also, with the lake effect coming, what do you now believe the chances for a white christmas are?!?!
Especially in Lockport...
Thanks so much for doing such an awesome job at keeping everybody informed!!! Channel 4 is the only News station I watch and the only weather forecast i trust!!!!
Most of the old snow will melt on Sunday. Lockport, however, may be on the northern edge of Sunday night's lake effect.
Mr.Don,
I've got another question. the NWS discussion pointed out L.E.S. into tuesday morning, east of both lakes erie and ontario. Could that happen? I happened to notice their take, was the L.E.S to move south quickly. They seem to almost point out more snow for ski country, while you seem to say the band will dump more on the city, if they form. Has there been a change, the dicussion was at, I believe 904 pm. Would that eventually lead to the ski resorts getting more snow?
Im in the Riverside,Tonawanda area. Lets hope the snow stays here the whole time the band is in the North area.
Blizzard? I'll believe it when I see it!
looks like a lot of snow for the metro, south north towns and the sothern suburbs/ north southowns.yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy #1 is Donnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
Don,
Do you think any of the LES will reach the near southtowns like Hamburg? I know it's early to tell, but might this miss us completely?
THIS IS GONNA BE LIKE OUR 1ST WHITE CHRISTMASS IN LIKE 3 YEARS FINNALY YAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
DON- say the wind does tear the bands appart, or even allow them to not get organized... would there still be enough snow out of it to make for a white Christmas?? What do you think? AND with your knowledge/ expearence, which way are YOU leaning... do you think the bands will be able to form and dump a lot of snow over the Ntowns, or do you think there will be too much wind shear, and it is way too 'ify'?? As always, thank you!
Hope to hear back from you!
Jim
to jp-just a suggestion remember the october storm we had a south west wind we still got some snow and Don said its supposed to shif south and i highly doubt it gonna weaken that much so there ya go.
I think wind shear and dry air may make it tough for lake snow to get organized too early Sunday evening. Later at night, though, more moisture will return and the winds should become a little less gusty. That should allow moderate to possibly heavy lk snow to set up shop across the Buffalo metro area, with more emphasis to the N & NE, and then a subtle slide into the heart of the City. Once this develops, blowing & drifting will be a major problem. Someone here is misreading the NWS discussion. The Watch doesn't really impact Ski Country much. By the time the snow settles south into Ski Country & the srn tier on Monday, lake effect parameters will have weakened, with less of a lapse rate. The NWS Watch doesn't include Niag or Orleans Cos, but at this hour I'm convinced some significant snow will work into srn Niagara and parts of Orleans Co on a 230-240 wind for awhile.
Hamburg should eventually get some, blogger, but my guess is Amherst will get more this time around.
The big question remains: how much will wind speed shear hold back band convergence?
Thats awesome that Amherst will see the brunt of this LES... if it does in fact happen! Its about time for a North-towns LES event!!!!!!!
Don---
Amherst weather watchers (there are a lot) are soooo happy to hear this news! It is about time for the Ntowns to get a dose of this "LES"!!
Yayyy! Williamsville is soooo due for a lake effect snow event!!! I cant tell you how happy I am to hear this GOOD news!
I would have to say that the northtowns (Amherst/ Clarence...) are long overdue for Lake Effect Snow! The snow is welcome with open arms! Lets just hope it actually happens!!!
Don,
Who do you think has the best shot of seeing the most snow out of this LES event? Amherst? I know its too early to tell, but give it your best shot as always, thanks!
-Rich
I hope this lake effect really happens, because Amherst hardly ever gets this chance for it! Lets hope the wind does not "blow" this LES appart!
I hope it sinks south too thr suthtowns sorry north towns
well it is the northtowns turn for this one so... sorry! However no one says you cant keep hoping!
Let's not forget it's Buffalo's turn, too, if the band intensifies. The Stowns can't be ruled out either, as the lower resolution GFS has the wind out of 250 shifting to 260 more rapidly, while the NAM and our Super Microcast have the wind predominantly from 250 for quite a few hours (mainly N of Buffalo) before it veers to 250. Still, speed shear could disrupt the band during much of its "residence time" over the Ntowns, so don't start counting your chickens just yet. In any case, the amounts don't look overwhelming based on QPF, but blowing & drifting could take moderate amounts and mess things up pretty badly.
Make that the NAM & Super Microcast have the winds predominantly out of 240 before veering to 250.
i want to hear good news when i wake up tommorow ill sleep right now
Goood Night Everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quick Note:
my prediction for this lake effect event as of right now
1-buffalo:5-7
2-North Towns(Amherst,North tonawanda....):4-6
3-Hamburg plus the other south towns:2-4
Have A good night!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why do I have a feeling that the winds will be much too strong for any 'good' lake effect to set up over the northtowns. I really hope im wrong!
Everyone, (Meteorolog 101)
Our biggest concern right now are 2 fold:
1) Get the forescast right for the drive home from the Game on Sunday. Protect the travelers.
2) Focus the forecast for travelers on Christmas Eve. Should they get an early start.. What is the window of opportunity to travel. Midnight Mass goers.. etc..
Not your personal needs of seeing a white christmas..
it looks like a prelongend lake effect snow event with sw winds
when i woke up this morning i was more than surprised to see that NIAGARA county was under a lake effect snow watch as well. (can you say white christmas?) but with the strong winds and moderate to heavy snow it may get real treacherous across the niagara frontier and localized places. are there any indications of snow amounts, or is it too sketchy to confirm anything? after all, if the winds are not that favorable, even if they come from the southwest, there won't be that much snow. still, we'll need to get some back cuz its all melting tomorrow. 50's! can u believe it? it's like it's going to be an entirely different season tomorrow! interesting next few days ahead for sure.
GFS model pushes the LES more into Monday now. Looks like Orchard park is also into the equation now (later half) but don't expect any snow for the game.. Just winds.
I really think the hero is the NCEP who predicted very early last week about heavy snows.. This was ignored by Don for some reason based on his posts..
don paul was ignoring it because at that time he didn't know the exact location and the direction of the wind even the ncep said there will be some localized lake effect event
Remember: All of Niagara county is under a LES watch, however only from about Lockport south will see the snow. The northren part of Nigara county will not see as much snow if any from this event. The areas to see the most would be areas in northren Erie... Amherst, Clarence... pretty much Buffalo northward up to Lockport. Good luck MB, if your on wknd duty! You did a great job last Sunday!
can someone provide the links to the models that you are using.
Thanks
Don---
Channel 2 was saying "were the first to give snow totals for this LES event." Their calling for 8-12"... is that reasonable, or way over the edge?... I like how WGRZ acts as if this LES event is a game between meteorologists and who gets their forecast totals out first, and who's the closest when its all said and done! However, this does look like it IS actually shaping up...
Channel 2 is calling for 8-12 inches of snow, with some amounts up to 16 inches by Monday afternoon for areas such as Ntowns!
So.....
When was the last time High Winds, Thunderstorms, 55 Degree temps, and Lake Effect Snow all happen in a one day period (given the fact that it is WINTER) Welcome to Buffalo N.Y. :)
Theres just no way you can really give a total on Lake Snows. You might call for 12" and not recieve a flake. We never know what will happen at all or where this snow will settle into. Models are Models and we wont know anything until it happens. How many times in the past we were suppose to be blasted with lake snows and it just didnt happen. TO MANY! Lets just hope its not to windy and these bands get developed fast.
you know whats weird i live on the northern fring of hamburg and i ussaly get a south west wind but do u think it will weakin befor t reaches hamburg????anyone know???
Hi Again Don,
the lake effect snow watch is now in effect for Niagara county!! are there any estimates of accumulation from this band coming?!?!
Thanks again for being so reliable!!
Lake snow watch is out for "NORTHERN ERIE-GENESEE-WYOMING-SOUTHERN ERIE-
INCLUDING THE CITIES OF...BUFFALO...BATAVIA...WARSAW...
ORCHARD PARK...SPRINGVILLE" and WIND WATCH is out for "NIAGARA-ORLEANS-MONROE-WAYNE-NORTHERN CAYUGA-OSWEGO-NORTHERN ERIE-
GENESEE-
INCLUDING THE CITIES OF...NIAGARA FALLS...MEDINA...ROCHESTER...
NEWARK...FAIR HAVEN...OSWEGO...BUFFALO...BATAVIA"
Doesnt look like the lake snows are going to go that north after all?
Reguardless of who gets what , I think it's proper to get te word out , that areas may get this snow , even more importantly this time of year , you cant scare people , but make them aware , even though i'm working (downtown) monday 130pm -7 pm , hoping for a city closing... =]
Anyways , Thx Team WIVB for keeping us informed , and Have a Happy Safe Holiday..
PS: Still waiting for the word (Dons)
Tony1983,
Niagara and Orleans are under a different heading as the situtation there will be different then the other locations..
When the NWS groups watches and warning they group them when conditions and lancks of time will be together..
Niagara and Orleans are also under a watch but are on a northern fringe so they would not be in the same group as say N Erie and Genesee and these locations will recieved more and longer duration..
Hope this helps
Anybody see the rainbow ring around the moon around 10pm last night? It was amazing! I never saw an ice ring around the moon so bright and colorful before.
i thought it was some kinda cloud over the moon
Some sites are showing well aligned 230/240 winds and those affect the Niagara Falls area so I would have to disagree with some of the above posts.
where is don or mb
give us update guys
I think issuing snow fall accumulations at this point is either ignorant or alarmist... it is one things to say that we have POTENTIAL for significant Lake Effect as the NWS has been careful to do, but placing actual values on it at this time, especially with wind shear potential and those always finicky wind vectors leads one to wonder if some media outlets deserve the criticism of hyping a POTENTIAL storm. Why not just be honest with people about the uncertainty... I would hope that viewers could comprehend that weather remains a somewhat non-perfected science. Speculation is best reserved for blogs like this and NWS weather discussions. Just my humble thoughts.
-Let it snow, Matt
Lets be smart.Give the snow accum potentials.. You can always fine tune later.As I said before the key is the safety of the travelers and the fact that this event will occur over a highly traveled holiday. The course of least regret is to get the watch out with potential accums.. This could be an event with a potetnial for disaster due to the potential exposure of travelers--Big Game Sunday and Xmas eve travelers-Churches and what not....
At this point confidence intervals need to be very wide..Statistical power is low on accums but everyone knows it.. Don't complain if the meterologists are off.. They do a good job dealing with all the limitations..
Models indicate potential for flooding later next week.
Rivers will be pushed tomorrow but ok. Then the snow will melt later next week with more rain.
Flooding Thur--Sat time frame next week. Mark my word..
Don, MB, Lindsey....I know this is a tough call, but any idea of time frame for the snow...I have family coming here from Jamestown, NY...they want to leave there mid-morning on Monday....I would guess that things will have tapered off in the metro area by then, but how about Silver Creek, Cassadaga, Sinclairville....the so-called Chautauqua Ridge....they travel right through there to get here...will accumulations be as bad there....will the winds have died down by then...is it more prudent for them to come Sunday afternoon before the changeover occurs?....any insights into this woudl be greatly appreciated!!....thanks for doing your usual fine job....I'll be glued to Channel 4 and the blog for further updates!!
3rd from last anonymous....you've hit it on the head! Giving accumulations right now, when the shear potential remains unknown, is bad science. Period. There was a particularly obnoxious post much further back on this thread from a dopey poster who questioned by why I "ignored" the NCEP heavy snow forecast. First of all, it's not NCEP--it's the Climate Prediction Center. I gave my reasons at the time, if you can read. Secondly, when they made that synoptic scale outlook, shear was not thought to be much of an issue, since this storm--on that day--was not expected to intensify so much as to produce High Winds. Thirdly, they WITHDREW that outlook the next day, pal.
I am off, true, so I'm not going to be able to spend so much time on this blog. Lindsay will be working tonight, and MB will be back tom'w.
You'll have some of your answers tom'w by mid afternoon. If you look, then, at a regional composite of Great Lakes radar, and you see little if any lake snow upwind over wrn Michigan, that's a sign that shear and dry air behind the cold front are disrupting convergence of any bands. If you see plenty of lake snow developing, you're wish for Buffalo & the Ntowns will come true! Niagara Falls poster--a 230 boundary layer wind will not bring much to NF. Wrn Niag Co, excepting the far SW corner near N Tonawanda, really needs more of a 220-225. At that point, the lake fetch is short and amounts are less, however.
Finally, as I posted last night, even if there is initial disruption with convergence, I still think late tom'w night winds will settle down enough to allow a lake band to develop and bring significant snow to Buffalo and points N & NE
1:07 pm and still no update
where is don,mb,lindsay,mike cejka
ayuud,
they are on a long lunch break.
Getting ready for the big storm. Even meteorologist need to eat.
NWS now saying that the essential SW winds will stay in place for all of Monday and into Monday night, which may indicate a longer lake snow event for the immediate metro area...possibly limiting the impact for the southern tier and "ski country"....also, anyone know when they might up the watch to a warning?....is this usually done within several hours of the event taking place....or are they still hedging their bets as far as what may actually happen?.....
thanks don for the update
hey AYUUD. I sent you a email a while back. Dont know if you recieved it.
Don,
Should i give any credence to NWS site where they state.."FAIRLY WELL ALIGNED 230-240 WINDS IN THE BOUNDARY LAYER SUNDAY EVENING WILL SET UP A BAND OF WELL ORGANIZED LAKE EFFECT SNOW ACROSS PARTS OF THE NIAGARA FRONTIER...INCLUDING THE NIAGARA FALLS AND BUFFALO METRO AREA." If your saying NF needs 220-225???
I hope it gets moved to the metro area and the southtowns thad be asome you guys in the north towns have more snow then the southtowns its our turn!!!!!!!!!!
No southtowns. Keep the snow in Buffalo. We havent seen Lake snows here in a long,long time. We always get brief little snows but nothing major at all. Its our turn for once!
i said buffalo and the southtowns i didnt disclude thee metro area but it dosent relly matter because the band wont weaking enof from buffalo to Hamburg to relley make a big impact im just discluding the northtowns like niagra falls.i garanty they will not get as much as buffalo if they get anything.
don i love the snow and i love the weather im always on weather bug tracking storms when they are calling for snow. Have a safe holiday
Don,
Can you update your Channel 4 web site.
First thing you see is the Tonawanda plow..I think people care more about the storm. The tonawanda plow is old news.We have a major storm event coming up. This needs to be the big highlight for those who frequent your exceelent web site.